Breaking the Stigma: Duchess of York on Mental Health, Trauma, and the Power of Vulnerability in an interview with Jan Gerber from Paracelsus Recovery
In a deeply personal conversation at Paracelsus Recovery in Zurich, Sarah, The Duchess of York, opens up about her lifelong journey with mental health challenges, her experience of complex trauma, and what it truly means to heal. Speaking with Jan Gerber, CEO of Paracelsus Recovery, the Duchess shares candid insights about her 35 years of therapy, the devastating losses that shaped her life, and her mission to break the stigma surrounding mental health. Together, they explore the themes of self-sabotage, perfectionism, and the universal nature of mental health struggles, illuminating the importance of authentic healing and vulnerability in a world that often demands perfection.
This heart-to-heart chat reveals the Duchess’s profound understanding of trauma, her diagnosis of complex post-traumatic stress disorder, and her unique perspective on connecting with younger generations about mental health. Through raw honesty and hard-won wisdom she demonstrates that vulnerability is not a weakness but a strength, and that healing is a lifelong adventure that requires professional support, personal courage, self-awareness, and a touch of humour for good measure.
Jan Gerber: So today we have Sarah, the Duchess of York. And we said we’ll talk about mental health. And we had a chance to talk in the last few days a bit. Well, thanks to you, Jan, for bringing me to Zurich and to your extraordinary organisation here and to learn. Look, listen, learn, show up and amplify. I guess this is the amplify moment.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: Right. Yeah. It’s nice to see you and thank you for your hospitality. You’ve been very kind and generous. It’s a great pleasure having you. And in a lot of people, a lot of the things behind the scenes in between sessions and meals and sit-downs is often the conversation goes very much to how much you care about mental health, obviously, of your own lived experience. It seems to me like every person you encounter in your head, there seems to be an inquiry, curiosity. How is the person doing? You ask right out.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: I think Jan, the secret to doing what we love to do in life. I don’t know what you love to do in life, but I know what I love to do in life, which is I love to listen to the heart of people. I believe that every person I meet has the right to respect. Has the right to be heard, no matter race, creed, colour, and any other denomination.
I think it’s very exciting that this stigma of mental health, which is unspoken, or verboten to speak about, that you, Jan, have been amplifying the fact that every single person on the planet has the right to be heard. And point two, it made me think, well, gosh, how do I learn what he’s achieved and work with the great Dr Beck and understand about the stigma of substance abuse and what is the stigma of mental health, of which I’ve had 35 years of therapy for my own mental health.
So I think this podcast is also to amplify your work and to amplify the incredible gift you’ve given the world by having, you know, I always think, if you make a cake, you have to have all the ingredients on the shelf, don’t you? And then you make a cake. Well, if you come to Paracelsus, you have all the ingredients in one place, and then you can come out as a well-cooked cake.
Jan Gerber: But you still have to bake yourself, and that’s an important part in healing, right? Nobody can take that job for you.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: No.
Jan Gerber: You have to walk that. That path yourself.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: And that is very hard work.
Jan Gerber: It is.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: I mean, to the easy road to mental health, there is not one. But there are solutions.
And I was diagnosed, which I rather enjoy. He said no diagnosis. But he said, we’re not going to do diagnosis, says Dr. Tilo Beck. But, and I wanted to correct him and said, no goats ‘but’, yeah, it’s and. But I did. So I said, Dr. Tilo, having just been told I was a nice redhead, and he liked redheads. I said, so what do you think? Could you diagnose me? And he said, well, we’re not diagnosing today. However, if we were, I would say that you would show signs of complex post-traumatic stress disorder.
And I went, yes, at last, somebody has completely acknowledged that I am normal in a way. What is normal? Normal is that I am complex. I have been through enormous traumas, either to myself, for myself or people to me. But it’s still traumas.
You know, my mother was decapitated in a car when I was 30-something and she was 61. My best friend, the next year, was killed in a car crash, which was the Princess of Wales. The next year, my best friend, there were three major years when I lost all three matriarchal heads of my belief in my heart. My mother and two of my best friends, Carolyn died of melanoma where she lived out melanoma through her whole body on the outside. And Diana died in a car crash and mum died in a car crash.
And I think that my mother brought massive joy into my life. And even though she was miles away and I didn’t see her, she was just such a joyful, extraordinary, effervescent person. So I lost that sense of joy when she died in a car crash. And then Diana was, I suppose, Diana was my best friend from when I was 14 and my just most, most incredible, funny, extraordinary sister and sister-in-law. And then Carolyn was — no question — my angel.
So I’d lost my three major hooks and anchors that had got me through from Gen Z to now, I was 40, your age. And just, well, I am not even 40, 38, sorry, same age as my daughters now. And just that is terrifying because you really are, you feel like you’re sinking. And there’s nobody there.
Jan Gerber: Who or what did you turn to in that moment? How did you deal with it yourself?
Sarah, The Duchess of York: I dealt with it myself. Which probably turned me back to food again.
Jan Gerber: Food is a coping mechanism such as our addictions or other things.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: And then I probably went on the road to sabotage.
Jan Gerber: And that’s quite a young age to enter a role. And then you find yourself possibly in a kind of, you know, living out a script that’s not really fully your own, right? Is that…at the time did you realise that this might become problematic for you at some point? Or how did you cope with kind of being thrown into that at that early age?
Sarah, The Duchess of York: I think Her Majesty, the Queen, is such an extraordinary legend that, you know, she’s been with me all my life, all my life. And you know, she’s been with the nation, all the life of the nation and the British nation. And then the globe really, in the planet. And I think you have so much respect that you add more pressure on yourself to be perfect.
And I think that to be the perfect princess, where is the rule book for the perfect princess? And I think if ever we look at leadership, we see Her Majesty as a great example, but how are you ever going to be that example? You’re going to have to polish your own self a bit more and become even more enthusiastic or more this or more that or more the other. Until eventually you do combust. Yeah. Because you’re not being yourself.
Jan Gerber: And I think that that’s in a way that’s a very universally human experience, right? I mean, you lived it at a very publicly exposed level, but anybody joining another family where they feel that there are high expectations or they enter a role in a company or represent a brand or anything, that projection of what’s expected of myself, that we can put a lot of additional pressure on ourselves on top of the actual pressure that’s there. And as you say, that can lead to combustion.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: It’s a combustion. It’s a good word. And you can combust. You can have a mental breakdown. You can have an attack of massive depression. You can have a breakdown. I mean, a serious breakdown. Or you can fall into your own traps and therefore beat yourself up and prove you’re unworthy and you sabotage your life.
So anyone who’s listening, the real reason why I wanted to talk to Jan and introduce you to Jan through my followers to you, Jan, is to say that we are all the same. And we really truly are. And you cannot differentiate when you have a mental problem… I have had a mental problem. I’ve had a mental problem all my life, but I’ve worked on it. And I am a work in progress. I am a canvas in progress. And I want to paint a painting that is coming from a place of understanding rather than splats on the wall.
Jan Gerber: That’s a very beautiful, very beautiful picture.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: I think it’s rather beautiful.
Jan Gerber: Yeah, absolutely.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: I will make a note of that one, Jan.
Jan Gerber: We should. Yeah, the painting. That’s good.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: Well, when I got a mastectomy, they didn’t say it was a lump. They said it was a splat.
Jan Gerber: Okay, so it’s very symbolic.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: So splat for me means you’re being… You’ve hit. You’ve been…
Jan Gerber: There’s momentum, a certain force?
Sarah, The Duchess of York: Yes, yes, yes. Good one, good one. Yeah, you’re very eloquent, Jan. I like Jan’s shoes. For those of you who are listening and you’re not watching, they’re very smart shoes.
Jan Gerber: Thank you, Duchess.
Sarah, the Duchess of York: Where is it from, sir?
Jan Gerber: I think it’s an Italian brand, but we don’t want to advertise anybody on the spot.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: They’re very nice.
Jan Gerber: But I thought that just… In my mind, nobody really prepares one. Nobody prepares you. Nobody prepares somebody to be thrown into that role of pressure and expectations. So in many ways, I think the only way to cope with it is the resources we’ve got. And some people might have more resources than others, both genetically, both in terms of their upbringing and where they’re already at when they’re thrown into the system. But there’s not really a way to prepare other than be aware, right? So if you can teach our next generations earlier on this kind of self-awareness. How am I feeling? What’s good for me? What’s not good for me? What’s okay? It’s probably the only way to…
Sarah, The Duchess of York: Well, Jan, you’re very young. So I’m 65 and I was brought up with never to look and talk about yourself. So to talk about yourself is selfish. You mustn’t have self-care. You must give to others. That’s it. You’re breaking a pattern in your own life because you’re young. But the real young people that I love to talk to are Gen Z and anyone that wants to just be themselves, I love talking to them because they don’t judge me. And I love being the generational bridge between Gen Z and the outside world.
What does that mean? It means, look, listen, learn, show up with purpose and amplify. How do you do that? You say, please explain to me how you feel. So then you hope that the person is illuminating what they require, what they wish, what is their thought process. And then I hope I can try and guide them on a journey from my own mistakes, from my own ramifications, my own actions. They can relate to it. Oh, Fergie, we read about that.
Jan Gerber: So you feel that today’s younger generation is growing up in an environment where dialogue is already happening. People are more aware, they’re more in contrast to what you said that the way you grew up, kind of basically suck it up — ‘stiff upper lip’ I think is the saying, right? Don’t show to the outside what’s going on on the inside? Do you feel that’s generally a big shift in generations now?
Sarah, The Duchess of York: Yes, I think the Gen Z. I love being with young people, young. I love it, I love it, I love it. I love being with somebody like when I first met Lester and I said, oh Lester, I’m going to be the Gen Z generational bridge for Lester and for young people. And so Lester says, well, why do you think you can? Why do you think Gen Z want to follow you? Why do you think Gen Z, but you’re older, you’re much older. And I went, hmm, good point.
Well, firstly, before we go on, may I ask you how you’d like me to address you? And Lester said, Lester. And I went, oh, Lester, so who’s judging who here? Because you judged me, but I didn’t judge you.
And I think it’s because when I was the 14-year-old that lost her mother to live in Argentina, I want to be 14, 15, 16, 17. I want to relate because I want to grow and I never knew those years. I was in the bottom of an ice cream pot having an eating disorder. And so I’m reliving my lost Sarah from the days of my Gen Z, through learning from all of my young friends who are now Gen Z. And I really, really love it. And I really believe that this podcast today… has made me understand that, as to the why.
Jan Gerber: Brilliant. I like that. There’s a concept of kind of reparenting, right? So you go back and then some of the things left out here, you catch up on. So you’re kind of at the same level as the Gen Z is in a way. So to that…
Sarah, The Duchess of York: To learn to relate.
Jan Gerber: Learn to relate. Yeah. And from that…
Sarah, The Duchess of York: Grow within yourself.
Jan Gerber: Grow within yourself.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: And talk to that teenage Sarah. The Gen Z Sarah.
Jan Gerber: Talking about the Gen Z. A lot of them are posting quite different lives than they actually live in the world, but even maybe the immediate actual world looks like to the degree where that projected world on social media becomes much more important to them. It can really blur identities. And since you like to speak to the Gen Z, in a way you had an experience that is quite related — projecting a different role or a different state of mind also in many cases. So what would you say to the Gen Z, especially many of them try to make a living on social media and possibly losing themselves in the process?
Sarah, The Duchess of York: Must be a very frightening place for them. It must be very frightening.
Jan Gerber: But that is a place you’ve been yourself?
Sarah, The Duchess of York: No, because I was never polished. That’s the only difference, yeah, is that I was not polished. I lost Sarah, but I didn’t know another Sarah. There was just the shadow Sarah.
Jan Gerber: Right.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: I didn’t know there were two different polishes. And so I thought it was perfectly normal to not be aware of your feelings, to be, I thought that was how you are. And it took me a long, long time to realise there is the light in the dark and Freud was right, light and dark. J.M. Barry was right with Peter Pan, showing the shadow on to Peter’s foot.
So for any Gen Z out there, I would really try really hard to not be what you think everybody wants you to be, just be who you are. I think the Gen Z group, the Youth Impact Army that I started, Youth Impact Council, it’s called, is showing that they don’t believe in substance abuse. They don’t believe in alcoholism. They don’t believe… They like mocktails. They like to knit. They like to crochet. They like to do board games. They’re much more of the community spirit.
And that’s very interesting, isn’t it? That you go back to the old, the village hall in World War II was where everybody met and the communities met and they all talk to each other.
Jan Gerber: That’s an interesting observation there because some books I actually read recently brought that to awareness much more. We’re all tribal animals in a way. We need community. And we’ve built a society that’s actually going in quite an opposite direction. So when I came across some statistics that during war times, actually mental health wards stay empty rather than filling up because people get a sense of purpose. We come together, we support each other. And then in the absence of real actual threat or crisis, we kind of dissolve into individuals almost or just very small kind of family nuclei. And that doesn’t seem to be very healthy for us. So it can be very lonely.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: I think that when you think you’re on your own with mental health and you think that you’re having a breakdown, you think you’re a burden to people which doesn’t help. You go into lack of self-worth and sabotage, but you also need to isolate yourself on your own because you don’t know how to deal with such terrifying mental thoughts of where do I go? What happens if I admit vulnerability?
And I think vulnerability is the key to say, I feel strange today. I don’t know why I feel so strange. Or I feel this or I feel that. I think a lot more people, that’s probably what we’re doing in this podcast, is people need to feel rather than think. What do you feel? How do you feel today? Is it a difficult day?
Jan Gerber: And even that can be difficult to start with. It takes practice to really be able to…
Sarah, The Duchess of York: To learn to feel, to learn to forgive yourself, authentic forgiveness of whatever you’re allegedly meant to have done wrong. And who’s the judge? One question: well, who’s the judge?
Jan Gerber: Yeah, exactly. A lot of the clients here at Paracelsus Recovery they come from very privileged backgrounds. And somehow it seems that people who feel like their privileged from a wealth status or a family name — from the public, but also from people in this demographic themselves — that they are less allowed to be struggling than everybody else because of that privilege. So there is often guilt, shame, and that even leads to more isolation and loneliness. All things equal, if someone didn’t have the material privileges, is that something that resonates?
Sarah, The Duchess of York: I think that when a mouse is running from a cat, he either stops and becomes paralysed or runs into the corner and hides from the big cat and therefore I think it’s really important that you are providing a place that can be very safe for him. And I think Paracelsus, that is key, that you are not just doing it for rich, entitled people or heads of state or heads of business.
You’re doing it to harness the awareness of each individual and whatever their needs are. And there are many people that must come to Paracelsuis that simply cannot be seen to be in a programme to help themselves and it could be that the stock price goes down or something?
Jan Gerber: Yeah, there can be real material implications.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: Yeah, I think that’s really important.
Jan Gerber: And often it’s difficult to distinguish what is, you know, actual danger or risks and what is self-imposed pressure or conditioning almost. If you lift up into a career or in a public institution or a family or whatnot, in a way you condition yourself. You get conditioned by the environment. You can’t show weakness, right? And that’s still a thing today, don’t you think? That mental struggles of being open about it is perceived as weakness?
Sarah, The Duchess of York: It’s very much a perception that you are mentally ill. And, you know, when you’re brought up with my age group, you’re locked up and throw away the key and left to sit in the chair rocking. And that is the stigma of mental health. I don’t think the film ‘The Cuckoo’s Nest’ the film didn’t help, did it? But it’s very much what I’m hoping to break. Because, you know, you break your leg and you put a plaster cast on and everyone says ‘oh dear, what have you done?’ The scars of the heart are there but you can’t see them. And mental health, you are stigmatised that you are a loser. And I think we should break that stigma. Which is what you’re doing.
Jan Gerber: And what I like to double down with from my own experience is that it might seem, it does seem for most people very scary to communicate outwards that you’re currently in a very bad state, because we are very vulnerable and then we even, it can amplify the anxiety.
But, and I’ve experienced this myself, you know I was kind of at the edge of not being able to cope anymore and I was about to go on stage and talk about mental health, actually, in a room full of very important, wealthy people. And, it was my, I had tears in my eyes and I was really, two minutes before going up on stage, I didn’t know would I have to call it off. And then the pressure of expectation — I’m going to do this. But somehow the nerves didn’t really allow me to just to kind of suck it up and for this next one hour I’m going to just do this mental health masterclass.
And it was the best bit of the conference — I got so much positive feedback. Everyone was like — that’s so vulnerable, so relatable in a way and I think that’s a very important message also, you know, business leaders, political leaders and so on, it doesn’t matter. We are getting to a time, that’s my view, and I would really like to ask you what your perspective is on this. We are getting to a point of time when actually showing vulnerability can be seen as a strength — it’s inspiring. Because all of us, when we follow leaders of whichever sort, we want to be inspired. And he or she also suffers pain. I suffer pain. Pain is universal — I think that’s a very powerful message.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: Firstly, congratulations for going up on stage. Well done. And persevering.
Jan Gerber: Thank you:
Sarah, The Duchess of York: No, no, that’s great. And so that would be the first thing. And the second thing is: you left people walking away with nuggets in their pockets right? So they can use that as an example. Your vulnerability gave them strength. So to show your true peacock feathers in that way was very good. And the third thing was: to admit that you’ve been through enormous challenges yourself and here you are meant to be making a huge speech at a mental health conference. That is enormous to lead by example.
Both of us have come from this place of self-judgement. I personally have massive self-hatred, self-judgement, non-forgiveness and non-understanding really, of all the different kinds of Sarah that are wandering around in my head. So for you to give this place and space, thank you.
Jan Gerber: Thank you for being so open about that. I know I remember you spoke in the past publicly about in some moments you almost want to be unlovable. A few minutes ago we spoke about self-sabotage that a lot of people experience in their life. Is that something you still experience? How do you deal with this?
Sarah, The Duchess of York: I think the first thing on this podcast is to explain what self-sabotage is. It’s when you get a point where you really want to prove that everyone doesn’t like you. So you go out of your way to do this, subconsciously or unconsciously and then you suddenly find yourself in an enormous big ‘Pooh trap’.
‘Pooh trap’ meaning Whinnie the Pooh. Because Piglet always sets traps for Whinnie to fall into. And I call them ‘Pooh traps’ because they really are ‘Pooh traps’, you know, because how do you describe self-sabotage? What is self-hatred? What is unworthiness? All these words. What is insecurity? I once, a long time ago, wanted to write a dictionary of these words. We throw them around — oh you’re insecure. What does that mean? You look at life with rose-coloured glasses. Yes, I do, but what does that mean?
So all of these words that people are throwing at me — oh, you’re over-sensitive, you’re this, you’re that, you’re fat, you’re ugly, you’re this. You get to a point where — bring it on — what else can you throw at me?
I think that is from learning and polishing the edges of, so if anyone knows that self-sabotage means that you really don’t like yourself at all and you go and go and make traps for yourself. And then you become a victim of those traps. Or a saviour. And the key is in the trying.
Jan Gerber: There are many archetypes.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: Archetypes; saviour, punisher, victim. We can all do the victim, you know — poor me. It’s raining today, oh dear. Shut up. Get out of your way. You’re fine. Let’s go. Come on, you’ve got this. And the saviour — don’t worry, I can rescue this person or that person. And then the punisher — I’ve failed.
Jan Gerber: Where do you see yourself on that triage?
Sarah, The Duchess of York: I feel myself continually feeling every single one of those.
Jan Gerber: Exactly.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: And, no, no, not circularly. Because I see it as a triangle and it’s difficult to go around a triangle.
Jan Gerber: You can do a circle around.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: You could, but then you’re leaving the gaps but I see myself in the centre of the triangle, aware that you could be a victim, you could be a saviour, you could be a punisher. You have to focus and really be aware every single minute of the day. And that’s why mental health is something of a challenge.
Jan Gerber: Do you think ‘saviour’ is a coping mechanism for yourself that you…
Sarah, The Duchess of York: 100%
Jan Gerber: Because when people follow you publicly, but then every conversation with you in private is always about others, about who can I help and who can I inspire and whose life can I improve? That kind of resonates on that corner of the triangle.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: Thank you. You can only do your best job. And I’ve got to learn that. But, you’re right, you’ve noticed that about me. And it’s something to be aware of. I’m very lucky that I’ve studied mental health for so long now that I can be very, very authentically honest about myself now. I mean literally so honest that it’s hysterical really.
Jan Gerber: Hysterically slash funny. You have an amazing sense of humour.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: So do you, lovely. My gosh.
Jan Gerber: We talked about that — humour is a great coping mechanism.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: I’ll give you an example of Jan’s humour. Yesterday when we left here Jan said ‘just remember, it’s self-care — you have to put the oxygen mask on yourself and you have to look after yourself. And I’m going ‘Please don’t tell me that again. Don’t tell me that again I know. Oh shut up, Jan. I’m fine.’ And I suddenly went back to the residence and I went ‘Oh my god, I’ve just told Jan, who is the founder of Paracelsus to shut up. I didn’t mean that. I’m very sorry about that. I hope you laughed’. And luckily, James and everyone went ‘no, no no, he’s fine. He has a sense of humour.’
Jan Gerber: I’m glad they explained to you that I do have a sense of humour.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: It was very lucky, wasn’t it? And I thought to myself, well, you know, because I was joking when I said it but you were right. It was just, okay, I know, I know, I mean I’m red-headed.
Jan Gerber: Interesting. That’s exactly the thought I had in my head when we were talking about saviour archetype and helping others and lifting others up. And I remember I told you that two or three times in our conversations so I recall exactly that conversation as well. You can only help others to the degree that you take care of yourself. So I say it’s about balance — if you try to stay in the middle of that triangle and when you see yourself going too far in one direction…
Sarah, The Duchess of York: Well, also the other non-diagnosis part of my new, great friend is, Dr Beck, he said ‘I’m not diagnosing you but have you ever thought about ADHD. And then I thought, interesting, on the one hand you can have compulsive post-traumatic stress trauma disorder, and on the other hand you have ADHD, which can cause you not to focus and everything. How wonderful — you can have a bit of everything and stay in the middle of the see-saw, which is spiritual maturity.
So how fantastic that you can acknowledge all those different non-diagnosis points that he made, but on the other hand — isn’t that okay too? So I am a mixed bag of jumping jelly beans. Isn’t that great? There are so many different sides of Sarah. I like to play with all my little friends, which are all myself. And therefore, Jan, it might mean at last that I’ve decided I quite like Sarah because I’ve accepted all those funny jumping jelly beans.
Jan Gerber: That’s also a beautiful sentiment from the picture painted of the jumping jelly beans. Fantastic. Because I do recall some…
Sarah, The Duchess of York: You can call me ‘beanie’.
Jan Gerber: That would add another personality to the Duchess, to Fergie, to Sarah, and beanie.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: I just added another character.
Jan Gerber: Might get a bit too many at some point. Was there a point — I think you talked about this in the past as well, I think you used the analogy of costumes in a wardrobe — you know, there’s Fergie, there’s The Duchess.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: Good memory.
Jan Gerber: Was there a point where you felt you had to reclaim Sarah? Was that a kind of conscious decision? Or did that grow over time, yeah? You might have been losing yourself in these roles.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: I think that Sarah is long, long gone. She’s come back now. And therefore you mustn’t feel guilty about leaving her. You see you were ignorant — you didn’t realise you were leaving her. Myself. I think that…
Jan Gerber: So is there a sense of self-forgiveness?
Sarah, The Duchess of York: It is only self-forgiveness. You wish that you could have only learnt it earlier but how can you wish you learn it because unless you do the lessons, you’re ignorant. And that is very important for everyone listening to this podcast: you can’t beat yourself up. You will, you will and you do and ‘oh, I shoulda’, woulda’, coulda’. Nah — it happens at the right moment.
If I had learned any quicker about the extraordinary melange of different people with me, I would have gone into fear and the fear would have kicked me into even more mental depression. Now, I am lucky enough to never have really gone into deep depression. I’ve gone into a massive breakdown but not deep depression. It’s not in my genes.
Jan Gerber: Well good for you.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: I know.
Jan Gerber: What about fear? You just mentioned fear and particularly in such a public role, you can be afraid of anything because any side comment, any hair looking out of place, or any little detail could impose fear, right? How are dealing with that?
Sarah, The Duchess of York: Well it’s one of the things we wanted to talk to you about here and one of them is my nerve endings shot from fear. And one of my big things is that when I walk into a restaurant I always sit with my back to the wall so I can see what’s going on because I’m always fearful of being shocked.
Jan Gerber: Probably because of years or decades of being on high alert, that constant high baseline of stress, that can tear us and wear us away on your nervous system.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: Dogs barking too loud, my nervous system is very heightened. I have a heightened sense of getting ready to run. The Sword of Damocles is close to the top of my head
Jan Gerber: You still experience that more or less or the same?
Sarah, The Duchess of York: More.
Jan Gerber: So that’s increasing. What are you doing to cope with that?
Sarah, The Duchess of York: I’m illuminating that little mouse that’s paralysed. We’re all little mice really.
Jan Gerber: Spot on. Actually, I remember something else you said along the lines: you don’t want to grow with thicker skin but you’d rather understand where the pain comes from.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: That’s very good. Did I say that?
Jan Gerber: Yes you did. Well done.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: People always say, they always interrupt me and say ‘but you’ve got a thick skin now, haven’t you?’ And, honestly, my skin is much thinner than it’s ever been. Probably from melanoma but also partly because I am stratospherically sensitive. My sensitivities have heightened from more of the trauma that I’ve been through recently.
Jan Gerber: All things equal — is that good or bad?
Sarah, The Duchess of York: It is what it is.
Jan Gerber: It is what it is.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: Yeah. No good, no bad, no judgement. It is just another work in progress.
Jan Gerber: So some people might grow with thicker skin in order to deal with what life throws at them. And other people have the ability to decide consciously not to. I just found it a very powerful statement — that you’d rather look at the pain, understand the pain and then, I guess, by extension — to my interpretation — understand the pain to work through the pain.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: I really enjoy the pain in a bizarre way. Because it means I’m feeling and I’m learning and I’m deciding instead of being numb.
Jan Gerber: Does it give you a sense of agency? That you can do something with this, I can learn from this, I’m in control.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: There are solutions. And when you come to a place like Paracelsus, you see that it’s okay, there are many solutions, there are many different things, and some of them are not what is the norm. But what is norm? And who is norm? And I’m really excited that there are so many different solutions.
Jan Gerber: That’s the thing, there’s no one-size-fits-all, right? I think that sense of ‘normal’, I mean at the very beginning of our chat here we talked about C-PTSD and in a way that is normal. Any reaction to what life throws at us can be considered as normal because it’s happening. So we need to be very careful that we don’t use ‘normal’ as equivalent to, or ‘not normal’ as an equivalent of judging that this is right or wrong or this is a good or bad reaction it’s just people react to emotions and trauma and triggers the way they do and it’s about finding ways to do it kinder.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: And variety. And understanding and listening and talking and being gracious and respectful and going the extra mile and understanding the old-fashion values or kindness. And why judge what everyone is? There’s this book out at the moment by Mel Robbins called ‘Let Them’ and I think it’s really important. Just let them. Just let them be what they are. And you don’t have to be…who is judging who is normal? And when someone dies I always write to the person saying ‘I’m so sorry for your loss, you are now going to have to get used to a new normal’.
Jan Gerber: A new normal. That shows that it’s not just one normal.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: So you can keep going with whatever. It means there’s always hope and there’s always a moment in time.
Jan Gerber: I know kindness is very close to your heart and when we met in London I know you talked about the work you do around kindness and also I think the research about what kindness can do for kids growing up and emotional healing. So love, kindness, compassion. And, again, people follow what you do and interacting with you directly. And one gets the sense that there’s enormous kindness, there’s enormous compassion, there’s enormous love coming from you, Sarah, GFergie, the Duchess.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: My jelly beans.
Jan Gerber: My jelly beans, exactly. But love and kindness for healing, it’s a two-way street. And often for people who have kind of a lived experience such as yours and you’ve touched on that and the kind of self-hatred and all that. Being able to accept kindness and accept love is for, you know, a more global sense of healing is almost equally important than giving it. What do you feel you’re at there at this balance? Is that something that you still feel is a work in progress? To accept appreciation or love?
Sarah, The Duchess of York: I think that when I worked for Weight Watchers for 12 years, I had a weight problem and I didn’t go into rehab for my weight, for my eating disorder. I went out to work and I went on the public stage and I learnt from every single person that came on the stage what was their secret for weight loss. I absolutely threw myself into understanding weight and food and my whole life was about food and my life was in the small little corner of the box. And I then managed after 12 years to move my life to the whole box and put Weight Watchers down to the side because I had compartmentalised where my pain was and why I was using food as my source of comfort.
To come to answer your question about where I am with my kindness and loving myself, I believe that if I can get kindness taught, there is Donna Young believes you can teach kindness on the curriculum. And if I can get kindness on the curriculum, that would be a great legacy for me to bring primary children into understanding that kindness can be taught. It’s quite extraordinary to think that we just got complacent enough to think that kindness was within us. It’s not, it has to be taught.
Jan Gerber: And often by example.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: So in doing that, I wonder whether I’ve got to teach myself. How easy is it for me to accept kindness from others? Nearly impossible. How is it to think I believe it or need it or wish it? I wish I did and I wish I could receive better. I did receive a compliment from my friend Tilla because I believed that it was such an extraordinary thing to say out of the blue that he liked redheads. It really I realised that I maybe I wasn’t quite so mentally unhealthy as I thought I was. And that was an interesting reaction.
Jan Gerber: Because you could accept that.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: Could logically accept it. Everything has to be cerebrally, logically for me to accept.
Jan Gerber: Oh, that’s your filter. It has to go through your logic.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: Yeah. Yes. I can’t just be because I’m me. And I’m me is good enough. And the last thing is the Queen said to me, Sarah, just being yourself is good enough. And I need to keep reminding myself that the greatest late living legend for 72 years on the throne of England told me that myself was good enough.
Jan Gerber: And that’s such a powerful sentimen for anybody listening and anybody in this world, we are all good enough. You are good enough. And that can be a very powerful baseline. With that intellectual insight, lots of work can start happening.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: Yes. Do you believe you’re good enough?
Jan Gerber: I’ve come to work hard on that — most times, yes.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: Nice. Nice. But you see anyone listening to this, we are two alleged adults. I’m not an adult.
Jan Gerber: What is that?
Sarah, The Duchess of York: What is that? But both admitting that it’s OK. It’s OK. So honestly, to say that you’re not, that you’re not very good at receiving, I can go out of this door and still work on it. It’s not.
Jan Gerber: Well, the work never ends.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: Never ends. Never ends.
Jan Gerber: A lot of people have that view that pain of people in public spotlight or privilege is a different kind of pain. We’ve just talked here that pain is very universal. Is there something that might be surprising for people who are listening when it comes to that presumption from your own experience?
Sarah, The Duchess of York: I don’t think it’s surprising because authentic Fergie has certainly done everything that she could possibly do or I could possibly do. And it’s always been highlighted in the public stage. I think people just accept that I am just out here testing the waters of life. And I don’t think it’s surprising that I speak openly about mental health, which I now am campaigning about. That I really would, and today is a big day for me, to really, really now, come on, we got to get this because if I can talk publicly about it, so can you.
Jan Gerber: 100%, that’s a very powerful statement and sentiment. I always like to say that pain is real — it doesn’t matter what your last name is or your accomplishments or your status. And I think it can be also very powerful for anybody to realise that the people we all look up to always look very composed, who lead countries or business or institutions or the faces of — they are equally human beings with lived experiences such as your very powerful lived experience.
And I’m thinking, I’m hopeful, I know that a lot of inspiration can be drawn from people such as yourself talking about a lived experience because then, in a way, it’s relatable. And people suffer in silence, no matter what their walks of life, listening to this, it can give more the sense, yeah, if she’s lived it with all that, maybe it’s okay that I lived that too and it’s okay for me to actually be vulnerable there and seek help and talk about it without shame. So thank you for that.
Sarah, The Duchess of York: Thank you.
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